The Human Factor: Emotional Intelligence in Finance

Megan - 00:00:26: Today, my guest is Rick Yvanovich, CEO and founder of TRG International. Rick is a Certified Chief Master Coach, serial entrepreneur, author, and speaker. And while continuing to lead TRG, his current focus is empowering professionals and businesses to unlock their full potential for consistently higher achievement. With a career spanning over four decades, he's leveraged his diverse experience to specialize in what he's most passionate about, speaking and business coaching. He has over 40 years of leadership and management experience spanning across accounting, supermarkets, breweries, newsagents, defense, energy, manufacturing, information technology, human resources, food and beverage, and property development. His business achievements include establishing TRG International, a leading enterprise solutions company focused on delivering technical excellence, helping clients, translate visions into actions, improving efficiency, and growing sustainably. TRG International serves clients in over 80 countries and holds partnerships with half of the top 20 hotel chains, as well as several Fortune 500 enterprises. Sharing knowledge and insights is his passion. He has authored and published multiple business books. His most recent book, business as unusual, is more than a leadership book, but a call to action, aiming at driving moments, evoking a sense of purpose in readers' minds. As a thought leader, he speaks at various global conferences and webinars covering a wide spectrum of topics. Rick, thank you very much for being my guest on today's episode of CFO Weekly.

Rick - 00:02:37: Thank you, Megan. So before we start, Megan, I'd like to share a core belief I hold pretty dear. And that's, we all have this potential to be architects of change. In our era today, which is really defined by this constant transformation, our task isn't just to keep up, but to actively shake the path forward. Every day, our actions, whether they're big or small, they do shape our future. And as we discuss business as unusual today, I want everybody listening to remember this. You are your own brand. And every single decision you make is part of the unique story you are crafting for yourself. How you react, how you adapt, and how you innovate in the face of change will define your story and your legacy. And this belief inspiring each of us to aim for balanced fulfillment is the cornerstone of my work. It's my life purpose. So as we dive into our conversation today, let's not just think about adapting to change, but about how we can define it. After all, when we embrace our unique qualities and strive for personal growth, we're not just participants, but we're catalysts in our ever-changing business as unusual world. So let's get started, Megan.

Megan - 00:03:54: Yeah, sounds good. And as you mentioned, today we're going to be talking about business as unusual. And I'm excited about this topic in these unusual times. Yeah, and as you mentioned, change is like really the only constant these days. So let's jump right in and get started. First, if you could just give us a little history about yourself and your career and where you've been, just so that we have some idea of who you are.

Rick - 00:04:19: Let's start off. I'm a baby boomer. So I could be talking for ages now because it's been quite a long career. I'm not a Generation Z, that's for sure. They're my kids. Anyway, where did I start? Well, I started really falling flat on my face because despite how well I supposedly did at school, when it came to those final grades, I bombed it. So I never got into university and I ended up stacking shelves in a U.K. Supermarket chain as a management trainee. After a while. I realized I was a bit brain dead. Nothing against supermarkets. I do like them. Cause I'm a numbers person and I really still can't remember. I suddenly decided I wanted to become an accountant. I don't know where it came from, but it came from somewhere. And so I went to accounting school. I became an accountant and I first went into practice and I hated it from day one. So I moved to industry, actually a brewery. That was far more interesting to someone in their early 20s. And then I just job hopped a bit. To acquire what I thought was the experience I needed. I'm very much a management accountant. And so I switched from breweries into manufacturing and I picked a defense manufacturing company that makes things go bang. That was very interesting, actually visiting the factories and seeing what they were doing and getting involved in costing and stuff like that, as we do in our accounting career. And then I moved to technology and I also had a stint in real estate. And then I went to oil. Big Oil, and they moved me from the U.K., all the way to China. And then I ended up in Vietnam. That was in the early 90s. And about 94, I retired. But since I'm a workaholic, I started up implementing accounting, financial ERP systems. And I've been doing that for the last 30 years. And we're still doing it. It started off as one man and his dog. That was me, but I have no dog. And we've got a little bit bigger. I think we've sold it to 80 different countries now. And I think we must have. I don't know, about 500 people or something, city like that. Yeah, so that's what I've been doing.

Megan - 00:06:52: Yeah, wow.

Rick - 00:06:53: For the last 30 years.

Megan - 00:06:54: What an amazing career you've had. So as you look back on your career, what lessons have you found yourself revisiting the most when thinking about business transformation and leadership?

Rick - 00:07:06: What I've seen is, as I've actually had a rather neglected background, I've worked in lots of different industries. And the joke is, as an accountant, they're all the same. The debit's to the debit and the credit's to the credit. And I think the problems that we're faced with, especially as a CFO, are pretty similar. They're always reporting problems, trying to get the data together, trying to provide the information to the people who need the information in time, in time and not late. Try and reduce that. That month-end close, I remember way back. When I first started, the PC only came out. It had only just come out. We were using mainframes. When I was working in practice, I actually was putting entries into a leather-bound ledger. I'm not even giving my age away. But that's how things used to be. Now, with all the automation that we have, it's really about, I'm a big fan of continuous close. I don't believe in month-end close. I want continuous close. We want access to information. The latest data, 24 by 7. And there's that sort of desire and get rid of all the paper that's been in every single industry I've ever touched. It's really consistent. And yeah, we're all still struggling to do it.

Megan - 00:08:24: And you've written a book, and the title of that book is Business As UnUsual. So what inspired you, first of all, to write that book?

Rick - 00:08:33: It was triggered by the pandemic. As I mentioned, I'm in Vietnam, but not now. I'm commuting there from Switzerland. But I spent 34 years living in Vietnam. At the time of the pandemic, it was 2020 now, we had some pretty severe lockdowns. So I found myself couldn't leave the apartment. So what better to do than go write a book? And so where did the name come from? Well, at that time, when I spoke to other business leaders, I started to get fed up when people said, when this is over and when we get back to business as usual, I thought- I'm sorry, that's really stupid. There is nothing remotely usual about what is going on here. And there are industries failing and business failing left, right, and center. And just because a pandemic goes away, they're not going to suddenly recover. They've already gone out of business. There is no going back to usual. It's only business as unusual. And even when restrictions were lifted, they get slammed down, shut again. A few months later, it was open, close, open, close. And in Vietnam, they closed the borders for more than a year. And it's taken years to recover. And a lot of the world was, companies are still in recovery. A lot of companies are still in recovery. And millions of people lost their jobs or became disillusioned and moved on to find something else. That's all a symptom of this business as unusual. And it has not stopped. It really hasn't stopped.

Megan - 00:10:09: And within this book, you talk about thriving in a new renaissance. So in your view, what defines this renaissance? And how can businesses adapt to capitalize on the opportunities that are presented?

Rick - 00:10:21: So what did I really mean by it's the new renaissance? What I did is I was looking at the old renaissance and I was comparing it to the new renaissance to see where are the differences. There's sort of five areas, the original renaissance. One of them was a revival of classical knowledge. Today, when I look at that, the new Renaissance is really looking at holistic knowledge. We have access to all information instantly at our fingertips. And not only... We really need to sort of see the big picture. We really have to step back and see the big picture and not get so caught up in the devilish detail. Technological advancement was another aspect of the original renaissance. Today, we still have technological advancement. Back then, it was the printing press. Today, arguably, it's generative AI. Exploration and Discovery, people were still trying to find new lands, new countries back then. Today, Exploration and Discovery, you can say, yeah, we're trying to leave the earth. But in a business context is we need to dive deeper into what is going on in the business, what is going on in the economy, what is going on with our processes. The original renaissance was the questioning of traditional authorities. We've seen a lot of that politically. But again, when we see companies today, I think that there's a lot more questioning by employees. Employees have a lot more power, I believe. And also the growing younger generations of Generation Z, which is sort of becoming the majority of the workforce. And so the more traditional authorities, the folks like myself, us baby boomers, who are supposed to be retired off very soon, if you haven't been yet. We're getting these young upstarts, questioning us. And the final aspect of the renaissance, the original one was humanism. And in the modern renaissance, as far as I'm concerned, it's all about human potential. Yes, we may have this genesis of AI and this wonderful automation, but it is all about people. It is all about humans. And that is an area that even myself as a numbers person. Wasn't too great on, which is why partway through my career, I did a little pivot and I moved more into talent and people. And I've also become a coach.

Megan - 00:12:49: And how do you see the traditional business model evolving in the face of this rapid technological change and shifting consumer expectations? And what are some of the key strategies that business can adopt to remain agile and innovative in the face of all of these changes?

Rick - 00:13:08: That's a great question. The consumers, I think, are becoming ever more demanding. And certain industries, certain businesses are already very adept at harnessing this new technology in order to analyze consumer sentiment and change. And I think we see that most in the fashion industry, where in the past, there was a seasonal change of fashion. And the latest and the greatest now can literally change something, within the month. It is so incredibly fast, it's not true. So the speed of change is just going to accelerate. So as a business, we really have to re-examine. How fast or how slow we react to change. But I just use that horrible word react. And it's not very good if we are reacting to change because that's sort of implying that we're not ahead of the curve, we're behind the curve, and we're just following the crowd. And that is the challenge, isn't it? It's one thing reacting fast enough. How do we get ahead of the curve and change before others have changed? How do we become the leader of the pack? I think that is really linked to challenging our own business models and really testing to see how robust they really are. Are we still trying to sell the same old things that we've been selling for decades and we're still trying to sell them the same old way and maybe growth has stagnated a bit? How do we, we've got to learn to challenge that. And just because we've been doing it for decades is not an excuse to continue doing it the same old way. We must find ways of changing and improving and tinkering. I'm a big fan of tinkering and testing and trying. We don't know it doesn't work if we haven't tried it yet. And the only way to find out if it works is to try it and potentially fail.

Megan - 00:15:22: Yeah. I mean, change is happening so quickly. It's very difficult to stay ahead of it. So do you have any advice for being proactive when it comes to change rather than just allowing change to happen to us?

Rick - 00:15:39: Well, it's sort of fostering a culture of innovation, really encouraging people to tinker or to come up with ideas. We want the new ideas. We want these. I really like the Generation Z. They're very different from my generation. And I want to hear their ideas because they're the future buyers. Well, they are the buyers.

Megan - 00:15:59: Yeah.

Rick - 00:16:00: I find it hard to put myself in their shoes. No matter how hard I try, I'm not like that. And I need to hear it from them. And I need to be open-minded enough to interact with them and hear the ideas. And when I say open-minded, I don't mean just sit and listen. I mean, be prepared to change my own perspective. As in, okay, I was wrong or this putty-dutty way of doing things might have worked for the last few decades, but so what? This idea that these folks have proposed, let's give it a go. Let's do a pilot of something and just try it. Until I try it and bring it to market, I don't know if it's going to fail or be successful.

Megan - 00:16:45: And your approach to leadership emphasizes creating a sense of purpose. So how do you believe leaders can cultivate a culture of purpose within their organizations, especially when times are just so uncertain and it's hard to maybe find your purpose?

Rick - 00:17:02: I mean, if the company hasn't got a purpose, that's a problem in the first place. It's got to be priority number one. I mean, traditionally, companies have had their vision and mission and statements and their values, which is wonderful. But I think it was really, I'm going to accredit it to Simon Sinek. And we start with why, who introduced the concept of, hey, it's more important to understand the why. What's the why of the company? What is the point of the company? And even in the coaching and advising that I do, especially with startups, I always start with that. What is the point of all of this? We can deal with the vision and the mission after we've got our purpose straightened out. So I would always encourage companies to revisit their purpose. If they haven't got one, put one together. And if they have got one, all right, bring it up again. Talk about it. Revisit it. Okay. Does everybody really understand it? Has the purpose changed? As in, was it something that somebody came up with and you stuck it on the website and you stuck it on a wall somewhere, but no one actually embraces it? No one really follows it? Because I believe that it's really important for the company to have a purpose, just as it's important for every individual to have a purpose. And when you have both of those, it's the alignment between the two. So if I, as an individual, have a purpose, and my purpose is in alignment with the company that I'm working for. Then I'm more likely to feel fulfilled and happy. If I, my purpose is... In the Going off on a complete tangent to what the company I'm working for is doing, I'm not going to be so happy. I'm not going to give my 100% because the company I'm working for is taking me in the wrong direction that I believe in. And this is why the purpose is so important because it is very much linked to the culture of the company. And if we have individuals who aren't in alignment with that purpose, then we potentially made a mishire.

Megan - 00:19:10: And I'm curious, do you think purpose and business, 25 years ago, it doesn't seem like purpose really had any place in business other than to make money. So do you think like that is an evolution type of a thing or when and why did it become important for businesses to have a purpose?

Rick - 00:19:33: It's always been that way, but it hasn't been so important because you can get away with not really having it. I believe, that a lot of businesses, the dynamic has changed. In my era, and maybe the eras before me, it's, you know, go find a job for life. And, you know, you're married to your job. And I've written about it. I put a little bit about it in the book. Prior to the pandemic, we commute to work, all right? We get in however we get to work, our car, motorbike, bicycle, war, public transport, commute to work. Could be a short commute, but more and more these days, it's a very long commute. And we go into the office and we sit down in our little cube and we jump onto our little hamster wheel and we go around in circles. And we're married to our job because it gives us an income and it pays the mortgage. And that's life. And then the pandemic came along and they threw the office away because we weren't allowed to go into the office. And we got stuck at home. And for some people, the job was thrown away because wherever they worked either retrenched them or their business went out of business. All sorts of nasty things happened. And for a lot of people in all parts of the world, they lived a very different life for a long period of time. And it wasn't necessarily easy. Now, for some people during that time, maybe they had a lot of time on their hands because there wasn't much to do and you couldn't go out. Some people, I believe, realized that they weren't actually that happy with the job that they have. And when they were allowed to go back to the job, it wasn't the same because not only has the environment changed, there are some companies who said, hey, we saved money by not having to have an office anymore. So just carry on work at home. Don't come back. We threw the office away. We're now working 100% virtual. Which, suited some people, but it also didn't suit other people. What really changes, people change. The employees, well, everybody changed. Everybody working for the company changed because we all managed to experience a different way of working or non-working and more time on our hands to think about what it is we want out of life. And it's not necessarily work. And so that's what I believe triggered the whole Great Resignation, the great reshuffle, the great whatever it needs to be, and whatever anybody wants to call it. Because as people came back, they found out the things didn't fit very well anymore. They didn't fit the organization or the organization didn't fit them. They didn't like their job anymore, or they didn't even have a job anymore. And so they went in search of the greener fields because the grass is always greener somewhere else, isn't it? And then they got there and found out it wasn't so green either, and they carried on moving. And so there's this sort of merry-go-round. I think there's still an awful lot of people out there who are still trying to find where they fit the best. So it's become harder and harder to retain people. And even if you're retaining people, there is a risk that you're retaining people only because those people need a job, because they lost their previous ones. The risk is for organizations is we need to make sure we have the right people. And for an individual, to join the right organization. And One of the things that helps is having a clear purpose. If that business has a very clear purpose and the employee is in alignment with that purpose, they like that purpose, and it's in alignment with their own purpose, then that's going to be a much, much better fit. Then somebody joining who really can't get a stuff about the company's purpose and is only just treat it as a job, you're never going to retain that person because that person's heart and soul is not in it. They will never give that discretionary effort. Why would they? Why should they?

Megan - 00:23:46: Yeah, that's great advice. And in your book, business as unusual, you explore the correlation between culture and high performance. Can you dive a little deeper into this connection and maybe share examples of how a strong organizational culture has contributed to excellent performance?

Rick - 00:24:06: It is still linked to the purpose, along with a clear purpose, because the purpose is also linked to the core values of the company. And it's the core values and the purpose that shape the culture. Because the culture is supposed to be in support of that purpose, and the core values are also supposed to be in support of that purpose, which creates the culture. And so if all of those are in alignment, and the people working there are in alignment, it means the people are happy. Actually have to be there. They want to be there. They want to put in the discretionary effort because it has a meaning to them. And so it's like if you have 100 employees and they all believe in the purpose of the company and they're all embracing the values and everything is in alignment, then you have 100 people going in the same direction. In contrast, if the 100 people are not fully bought into the purpose and they're not embracing the values and it's not in alignment with what they believe, then you do not have 100 people going in the same direction. You only have some of them, but others are going maybe in the complete opposite direction. So it's like having people slowing the organization down, or if this was some kind of tug of war, they're pulling the organization in the wrong direction. Now, whether they're actively pulling or they're just standing there and having to be dragged, they turn into more of a passenger. Okay. Now, when you have that kind of dynamic, it's very hard to have a high performing team. It's a bit like having a football team and some of the football players are sitting down while the match is going on. It doesn't really work.

Megan - 00:25:56: And let's switch gears for a second and talk about, well, maybe we're not switching gears because it's in the same vein. Talent development. And that's a theme that you focus on. So what does effective talent management and development look like today? And how can companies leverage technology to enhance their talent development strategies?

Rick - 00:26:18: To me, it all starts with getting the right people on board. Okay. You can go back to Stephen Covey's, get the right people on the bus, get them in the right seats, get the bus going in the right direction. To put a different analogy is, yeah, we just got to hire the right people. If we hire the wrong people, that's actually a big mistake because it's a bit like, hey, we're about to come up to Christmas. You're cooking a nice Christmas meal. If you buy the wrong ingredients, it's going to be hard to serve up a good meal. People are not going to be happy. So we've got to start off with the right ingredients in the first place, which is hiring the right people. And to me, that is hiring the people with potential, but more importantly, with the right attitude. So they've got to have the right mindset and they've got to have the right type of soft skills. Hard skills are easy to teach. Soft skills are far harder. So as long as we've brought on the right type of people rather than the wrong people, we're starting in a good place. We have a good foundation. Now for the talent development, I believe that we have to grow every single person. And I believe it's up to the company to provide a framework to allow people to grow. And I tend to use framework because I do not like it. When we spoon feed people. I mean, we're humans, we're not babies, we're adults. And so when I say provide a framework is provide the opportunity for people to grow, provide the programs for people to grow, provide the training for people to grow. It's a choice of the individual, whether they're going to take up the opportunity or they're just going to throw it away. And this is where the correct mindset and the correct attitude need to come in because people need to want to grow and they need to want that. Because if they don't, then what's the point in trying to grow them if the person doesn't want to grow? We can use all sorts of technology to help here. There is a wealth of assessment and tests that you can use to help find the right people. And when I'm talking about testing, I'm not talking about trying to find intelligent people or unintelligent people. It's got nothing to do with IQ. It's all to do about human behavior and knowing, what behaviors contribute to the better performance in the organization? What are the behaviors of the people who really embrace the culture of the organization? So it's all about sort of cultural fit for the organization, but it's also looking at what's required for the role that you are hiring that person for.

Megan - 00:29:03: And in areas like accounting, maybe even technology, where there's a staffing shortage and it's hard to attract the right people, what is your advice to companies for making sure that they are getting the right fit and not just filling a role because it's empty?

Rick - 00:29:21: That really is a great question.

Megan - 00:29:24: It's very hard these days to attract good talent and compete with sexy companies to work like Google and Amazon. And, how do normal companies keep up with that?

Rick - 00:29:35: Well, normal companies are a lot smaller.

Megan - 00:29:37: Yeah.

Rick - 00:29:38: They're going to be a lot smaller. And let's be honest, when people think about companies, this is a bit of a generalization. People start thinking of these massive brands with hundreds of thousands of people. They're massive companies. But when we actually look at the statistics... The statistics show that 99% of the companies on the planet are all SMEs. 99% of all companies on the planet are SMEs. They are not big. They don't have thousands of people. And therefore, the smaller companies can have a very different culture. You could be a big fish in a small pond if you want to use that kind of analogy. But okay, so how do we attract people? Well, it could be because of the technology that we use in accounting. Are we still using scraps of paper and calculators? Or have we got a whiz-bang ELP system? Are the systems we use something that we're really going to train our new accountants on? Are we going to help them develop and grow using these systems? Are these people just going to be, in my day, a junior accountant? We were really data entry people. We had really grungy jobs back then. And we had pieces of paper. We had to write numbers down and add them up. It's really quite backward. Today, all of that data entry is supposed to be completely automated. We have tools to do that. So is the company going to teach these new higher accountants how to interpret data properly? Are we really going to mentor them? And so I find that in smaller companies, that's what we have to do. When I hire accountants, yeah, I'm going to mentor them. Literally one by one, if that's what they need. I have certain knowledge and the only way I can pass it on is by mentoring these individuals and passing on my knowledge. So those folks listening, if you're a CFO, if you're a Financial Controller, senior accountant, or whatever you are, you have knowledge. And your knowledge, if you can pass it on to new hires, or that's the carrot that you're dangling, people are going to join your organization because of you, because of your knowledge, of your experience, and what they can learn from you. And I believe the younger generation is still hungry for information. And I know we have internet and generative AI, and everything is supposed to be at our fingertips. However, as an accountant, I still believe that I have a feel of numbers that generative AI still can't get. Yeah, generative AI can look at the numbers and say, because this number is that and that number is that, it means this. But they still don't have that feel of the industry. They don't have that feel of the business to really know what that number means. That's a very hard thing to program into a computer and is that type of knowledge that is usually passed on through that mentorship or coaching within the organization.

Megan - 00:32:44: And let's talk about emotional intelligence for a bit. So EQ is another area that you highlight as critical for leadership. So how is it that you assess and develop emotional intelligence in both yourself and your teams? Is it something that someone just naturally born with? Or is it something that can be developed?

Rick - 00:33:06: The good thing about all of these things, like these are all behaviors. Emotional intelligence is a behavior. And whether you behave rightly or wrongly, the good thing about behaviors is they're taught. They can be learned. They can be changed. And emotional intelligence is so important today because it is a uniquely human trait. And in the face of all of this technological change, the thing that we need to be cognizant of, it still needs people. And we need to be able to work with each other and deal with each other. So emotional intelligence is something that I believe that we need to make people aware of. And rather than just saying, hey, you need more emotional intelligence, which really is pretty unhelpful if people don't know what it is. I believe people need to be trained on it. They need to be given information on it. And organizations need to embrace it. So as leaders, we need to understand it. Now, a simple way of understanding emotional intelligence is it's how we show up, how we show up. All right. So if each of us listening sort of thinks about the people around you, maybe in your office or your friends, and you can form an opinion about some of them, some are friendly, some are less friendly. Some might even be hostile. Some people are your go-to people. And that's that kind of feeling about other people you are creating in your interaction with those people. Now that, in a lot of cases have been built up over a long period of time. But where emotional intelligence really comes into play is imagine a new person walks in the door of your meeting room of a meeting that you are having. What's your first impression of them? When you ask them a question, how do they react? And so how a person acts to another person, how they react, how they interact, whether it's their verbal expressions, their body language. It helps shape the perception of the other person. So if you walk into that room and you're that friendly person, helpful person, maybe that's how people will instantly see it. Conversely, if you enter that room and you have a scowl on your face, you're staring at the floor, you're not shaking anyone's hand, you're not saying hello, you're being distant, you're not contributing, well, that's also going to form an opinion from other people. So it's how we show up. And that is a behavior that can be learned.

Megan - 00:35:47: And do you think EQ is something that's rare these days? Or do you find that younger generations have more EQ than maybe baby boomers and Millennials? No, Gen Xers.

Rick - 00:36:01: Okay, there are a few things. There's a potentially generational thing. But let's talk about accountants.

Megan - 00:36:08: Yeah, not generally. We're having a lot of EQ.

Rick - 00:36:13: Yeah, so accountants, yeah, bookish people, like numbers, hide me in a closet and just leave me with numbers and just don't disturb me. I'm happy. We are typically introverted. This is a generalization. So for all of you extrovert accountants out there, apologies. In general, especially when I was growing up as an accountant, we were usually the bar of the jokes. People used to make fun of the accounts all the time. We're boring people with the double pocket protectors. We've always got our head buried in a book or in numbers. And we were not the life of the party, that's for sure. However, now our challenge is, especially as you go up the ladder and you enter the C-suite, you've got to become a people person. People are looking up to you. The younger generation, they're maybe not as differential to elders as maybe we were brought up to believe. And so they are more challenging. And they want to know stuff. And we're expected as accountants, especially the more senior we are, to go out in public and speak. Yes, do some public speaking. Be a front man for the company or for the department or the division or whatever. We need a lot of EQ for that. We really do. And for those accountants out there who haven't even progressed to becoming an accounting or a finance business partner, it does mean working with non-accountants and working with people outside our accounting team. And that usually does involve interpersonal skills. So, yeah, I believe EQ is super duper important. Now, one of the things when I'm looking at other generations, especially I'm going to pick on Generation Z. I'm not picking on Generation Z for any particular reason, apart from the fact that they have been the last four years, especially during the pandemic, anybody attempting to enter the workforce during the pandemic and ended up not being able to enter the workforce and had their whole career start delayed by one or two or even three years, they have been at a terrible and unfortunate disadvantage. Because in those formative work years that they're first touching in that work environment, they were not even in a traditional work environment of actually going into an office because you couldn't leave your home and the office, you weren't allowed to go into it. And so how did they learn? The interpersonal office skills that they need to actually work and interact and collaborate with other people. And as we've moved into this either virtual or hybrid environment, it actually makes it very hard for folks coming into the workforce. If they're not going to that office environment, it's very hard for them to feel connected because they're not. And I don't care how brilliant Zoom is or Teams or whatever anybody is using, it's very hard to form a good, trusting relationship if all you see is this little face on the screen. It's not the same. Well, it isn't for me. I'm a baby boomer. Now, I've seen that there are a lot of younger generation because they are using this virtual communication. And I have met a lot of young folks who couldn't join the workforce. They were delayed one or two years before they actually stepped into an office because of the pandemic. Is their interpersonal skills for far too many of them. I'm not saying all, but far too many. They need help because they just haven't been exposed to it. They got used to not meeting face-to-face. They got used to just texting. Or it was the pandemic. They couldn't go out. They haven't had their hair cut for six months or whatever it is. And they're even still doing video sessions with the camera off, which I absolutely hate. If you're having a video call and you're having a team meeting and you're staring at a black screen, it's crazy. That is not how we as humans were designed to interact. So emotional intelligence is so, so, so important. And I encourage us all to learn it. And it doesn't matter if we're accountants. We have an opportunity to prove that it can be done and lead the pack and be the experts in this if we really wanted to be.

Megan - 00:40:57: Yeah, that's so true. I never really thought about that. But I look back on my own first two years in the workforce. And I mean, those two years kicked my butt. But they were like, I learned so much just being around like senior leaders and people who were more experienced than me. And you're right that that's been missing for the last few years for a lot of people.

Rick - 00:41:19: And it's still happening now. My daughter, she graduated in 2020 for her bachelor's. And it took her a while. She ended up doing a master's. And then, you know, the pandemic was still on when she graduated on that. And it was still very tough to get a job. My son, he's just graduated this summer. And he's finding it's still tough to get a job.

Megan - 00:41:42: Yeah.

Rick - 00:41:43: And I have many friends who've got kids who have just finished their master's or whatever they have done from all around the planet. It doesn't matter if they're in Europe, the States, Australasia, Southeast Asia. Just because you got a degree is still no guarantee that you'll get a job. And woe betide those people who don't even have a degree and they're competing with the same people who have got a degree who are going after the same job. I was doing a talk, you know, last time I was in Vietnam in the last month, I was doing a talk to a group of visiting students from the U.K., who were on a scholarship to experience business in another culture. And the talk that I gave was about business ethics and comparing the business ethics of the U.K. and Southeast Asia, which are different. In one of the breaks, I was asking them, there are about two dozen of them, and they were all finalists. And I said, right, have you found a job yet? And not one of them had found a job. And these are honors students. These are scholarship winners. These are the smartest folks. And they are struggling to find a job. And there's some people who want to go into law, and they've been offered a job in 2026. That's in two years' time. It's ridiculous. It's, I feel for young folk, I really do.

Megan - 00:43:03: Why do you think that they become so competitive? Is it technology to blame or why? Why is it that it's so difficult for college graduates these days to find a job?

Rick - 00:43:14: Because...

Megan - 00:43:17: Maybe people are retiring, as break, please.

Rick - 00:43:20: No, there are many reasons that can be given. One reason is, yeah, okay, maybe a lot of big-time employers are employing less people. It's called technology. So we can blame technology, all right? That's one reason, but it's not the only reason. The other reason is I still believe that there is a disconnect between the educational system and what business needs. Let's turn it around another way. Okay, somebody leaving high school or somebody who's just graduated with a bachelor's or who's just graduated with a master's. Those students, let's assume they've never worked a day in their life apart from some part-time job somewhere. Are they work ready? No. Do they have the skills that the company wants them to actually have? No, because what's the company asking for? They want a new graduate with several years experience. I mean, that's, you know, isn't that an oxymoron or a conundrum? If you've just left university and just spent how many years getting whatever fantastic degree you have, and you focus purely on that to get the best grades, the best score ever, of course you haven't held down a full-time proper job. How are you supposed to turn up with one or two years experience? You can't. Where are you going to get the experience if no one's going to give you a job? You can't. It's a lose-lose situation. And so organizations, one of the problems is since it's a hiring market now, I'd say companies are spoiled for choice on who to hire. There are a lot of people out there that we can hire. So we're going to pick and choose. In the markets that I've looked at, that is the case. So if you go to the U.K., that's the case. If you look around several places near us, that's the case. If you look in Australia, that's the case. There are thousands of job applicants for that one job available. Of course, the company is going to pick the best person. If they can get someone at graduate entry rates who has got three or four or five or more years experience, good for them. You could say it's unfair, but that's what's happening. Now, it's interesting, Megan, you were saying, yeah, it's hard to attract the right talent, which would imply that there are not enough people applying for the jobs.

Megan - 00:45:54: Yeah.

Rick - 00:45:54: Or did I misunderstand that comment?

Megan - 00:45:57: Yeah, it seems, yeah, like it just seems like there's a ton of jobs and I don't know, it's just very unusual, like the topic of the day. It's just unusual times. I mean, it seems like jobs should be easy to come by, but they're not. And that there's a staffing shortage, but there isn't.

Rick - 00:46:19: In my mind, I know lots of people who are looking for jobs. Lots of students are, because one of the things that we do in our company is we are, I'm a huge fan of internships. And it was, I would have to, I've been, we've been offering them for 20 years. It was actually the pandemic that triggered, my madness, as it were, around internships. Because it was that time my daughter had just graduated. And I asked her, hey, you're stuck in the U.K., and you can't come to where I was living home, which was Vietnam at the time, because the borders are closed and you're not allowed to come here. So I was separated from her for like a year or something. And I said, how do people feel? And she said, we're all terrified. We're all really scared. We can't find a job. But it's not just me. It's like everyone I know, no one's got a job and no one was offering internships either because internships are always in the office, aren't they? So I thought, I wonder if we could do a virtual internship. So we just started and we went crazy. At one point in time, we had like one intern for every employee in the company.

Megan - 00:47:28: Wonderful.

Rick - 00:47:30: I would see like, let's try and break this. And it was purely like, well, if no one's going to give you a job, I'll give you one.

Megan - 00:47:37: Yeah.

Rick - 00:47:37: Okay. We'll find some stuff to do. We'll work something out because at the end of the day, if you can put down on your CV that you did an internship with us for three months or six months, that puts your CV with a bit of experience compared to the other person who didn't have any. Okay. And so we, and we'll still try and teach you something. And so anyway, I still work an awful lot with students and universities, speaking universities very frequently to try and inspire their undergraduates to, to get going and get their life together and have, find a purpose as well and find a job and be successful.

Megan - 00:48:14: Yeah, those internships are so important.

Rick - 00:48:16: There are so many people out there looking for a job. And yet they're companies looking for people. All right. So where's the disconnect? Are companies looking in the wrong place? Have companies got a little bit too carried away with the recruitment technology they are using?

Megan - 00:48:38: Yeah.

Rick - 00:48:39: And they are accidentally screening out so many applicants.

Megan - 00:48:46: Yeah. I think that is partially to blame for sure. It's like sometimes

Rick - 00:48:50: Because if there are hundreds of people... Yeah. If there are hundreds of people applying for every job and you're using a screening tool to say, just screen out everybody who doesn't fit this criteria, companies are still failing to acknowledge that, let's say, 100 people apply and your screening tool is going to screen out 90 of them. Those 90 people most of the time don't even get an acknowledgement that they've been screened out. They get nothing. Okay. And the thing that I still hear today, again, are these young folks is they've applied for a job. They even went for an interview or they did a test or whatever it was. And they are after many weeks, they're still waiting for a reply.

Megan - 00:49:37: Wow.

Rick - 00:49:38: I just tell them, just stop waiting. You're not going to get a reply.

Megan - 00:49:42: Yeah.

Rick - 00:49:42: If you haven't got a reply within, you know, best practice, you should get a reply at least within a week. Two weeks are the very, very worst.

Megan - 00:49:50: Yeah.

Rick - 00:49:50: So again, if we say, hey, it's very hard to attract the right people, well, maybe we should treat applicants better. Yeah. What if we acknowledged every single applicant, even if you don't offer them a job? Well, here's a challenge for you. You make your recruitment so good that even the people you do not give a job to say that you are wonderful.

Megan - 00:50:16: Yeah. The world would be a much better place if that were true.

Rick - 00:50:20: It would.

Megan - 00:50:21: Yeah. People would at least feel valued and seen.

Rick - 00:50:24: It's not just the companies who are making little errors like that. It's also the applicants. Yes, I do get people applying and they say, dear, get my name wrong. Get the company name wrong in their company, in their covering letter. Yeah. They're just chucking out a template. Yeah. That's also pretty silly. So relying purely on technology, it can go a little bit wrong as well. So for those people who put that human touch in their cover letter, and they should stand out. They should stand out.

Megan - 00:50:57: Yeah. So maybe that's what's missing on both sides is that human touch.

Rick - 00:51:01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Megan - 00:51:02: And last question, but as we're entering 2025, how is it that you see the role of CFO evolving in the business as unusual world?

Rick - 00:51:15: I personally think that the role of the CFO holds as much promise today as it always has when I entered accounting 40 years ago. I've always believed that accountants, that financial slash business sense that is grounded in our accounting studies and what we do day to day, because we're all about providing information that people can use to help make better decisions, better business decisions, which is good for organizations. I think as the CFOs, we're still in that position. However, we have even more technology in our grasp, even more technology in our fingertips. So we can do potentially even more with less. So all those, I'll call them boring, mundane, simplistic accounting tasks, they can be automated to death. And we can really use accountants as accountants, not just to input numbers, but to really interpret what does it all mean and help explain to others, really be that finance business partner. Explain to the business, this is what is going on, this is what we need to do, this is the right number, or this is the thing that you need to focus on. All right? So these are the things that are green. Ignore them. But these two or three things, you put your focus on there. So I think from a finance perspective, it's still going well beyond finance and look at that holistic view of the business and being that advisor and consultant for the entire business, really helping with the strategy, really helping with eking out the profitability, helping with business innovation as well, because we're going to look at our business models. And yeah, embrace that EQ. There's nothing stopping us being people, people at the same time. We're not just numbers people anymore.

Megan - 00:53:25: Rick, thank you so much for being my guest today.

Rick - 00:53:28: Well, you are welcome, Megan. It's been really fun being on this podcast. I really am grateful for you allowing me to come on. And as we close, I really want to leave everybody with a thought. Remember, we are not just participants in this ever-changing world, but we're architects and we need to shape the course of our own lives, our careers, and the world around us. I encourage you all listeners to embrace change and try and define it, not just adapt and react to it. Be the catalyst in your own business-as-unusual world. The transformation starts with each one of you individually, and I'm really eager to hear about your journeys. So Megan, I really like, again, to express my gratitude to you for having me on your wonderful podcast today. It's been a really fascinating conversation and I hope our listeners have enjoyed it as much as I have.

Megan - 00:54:29: Yeah.

Rick - 00:54:29: And to all listeners, I really appreciate your time and attention. And I look forward to hearing from some of you, learning from your experiences and perhaps sharing in more in-depth future discussions. Thank you again, Megan.

Megan - 00:54:46: Yeah.

Rick - 00:54:47: And all our listeners for this great exchange.

Megan - 00:54:50: Absolutely. And thank you so much for taking the time out of your evening to be here with us today and to share your experience and your knowledge. And I wish you all the best. And to our listeners, please tune in next week. And until then, take care.