Whether it's the tug-of-war between generating long-term value and immediate cost-cutting, walking the tightrope of managing risk while driving groundbreaking change, or the evolving expectations that demand more than just traditional financial insight, the CFO role is loaded with paradoxes. Based on the eye-opening findings from the 2023 Global EY DNA of the CFO Survey, we're joined by Myles Corson to explore how CFOs can broaden their skills and build high-performing finance functions to successfully navigate this intricate landscape.
As the Head of Strategy and Markets for EY Financial Accounting Advisory Services, both globally and in the Americas, Myles leads a customer-centric team committed to assisting international organizations in navigating the complexities of regulatory shifts and transformative changes in financial reporting. His expertise lies in guiding clients through significant transitional phases, equipping them to be future-ready. Additionally, Myles hosts the EY Better Finance podcast, where he delves into timely finance-related topics.
Welcome back to CFO Weekly, where we're talking with financial leaders about how to build efficiency in their teams, create time for strategy, and ultimately get results with your host, Megan Weis. Let's jump right in.
Megan - 00:00:40: Today my guest is Myles Corson. An experienced finance advisor, Myles is the EY Global and America Strategy and Markets Leader for Financial Accounting Advisory Services. He has worked with senior management and board-level executives of major Fortune and financial time stock exchange companies across multiple industries. Focusing on diversified industrial products. With extensive international experience in the US, UK Europe, and Asia Pacific, Myles has managed networks of global relationships and led complex cross-border projects. He focuses on addressing the impact of regulatory and transformational change on the finance function, including accounting and financial reporting and related systems and processes. Myles hosts the EY Better Finance Podcast, has served as a member of the steering committee for EY's global CFO program, and contributes to the organization's DNA of CFO research. He earned a bachelor's degree in economics from the University of Nottingham and attended Stanford University's Emerging CFO program. Myles, thank you very much for joining me on today's episode of CFO Weekly.
Myles - 00:01:43: It was fantastic to be here. Thank you for the invite.
Megan - 00:01:46: Yeah, today we'll be discussing the findings of EY's 2023 Global DNA of the CFO Survey, which was released on the 28th of June and surveyed 1,000 global CFOs and senior finance executives. And I'm really looking forward to hearing what your findings were in these challenging times. So let's get started.
Myles - 00:02:06: Right.
Megan - 00:02:06: First, tell us a little bit about yourself and your role at UI.
Myles - 00:02:10: Sure, thanks, Megan. So I've been at EY for a long time. I'm based in New York and have the privilege to lead and coordinate a lot of activities serving senior finance executives around the globe. So as part of that, I lead some of the global research, including the DNA survey that we're going to talk about today, as well as our corporate reporting and institutional investor survey. And I also host our Better Finance Podcast.
Megan - 00:02:35: So can you talk to us a little bit about conducting the recent EY 2023 global DNA of the CFO survey and to whom those surveys were sent?
Myles - 00:02:44: I'd like to share a little bit of context, Brandon Megan. So as you mentioned, the 2023 survey launched at the end of June, but we've been running this survey since 2008, 2009, and we run it every three or four years, and we're looking at how the role of the CFO has continued to evolve. So as you'd expect over that period, we've been through a number of major events, like the financial crisis, obviously the pandemic more recently. And so it's been interesting to see how CFOs have evolved through those major transformation periods, but also what has been consistent, and what themes we've seen consistently evolve through that period. So as you mentioned, each time we survey over a thousand senior finance leaders around the globe, focus mainly on larger organizations with billion-dollar-plus revenue across a subsection of industries and sectors. So we think it represents a very compelling data set on what is top of mind for senior finance leaders.
Megan - 00:03:46: And what were some of the key findings of the survey?
Myles - 00:03:50: I think the three key paradoxes continue to be at the front of the CFO's mind. The first one is how you balance long-term performance and investment with short-term results. I think all of your listeners will understand that particular challenge and the pressures that come from that. Secondly, it's about how you balance risk-taking with being innovative bold, and dynamic, particularly in areas around technology, for example, how do you balance that sort of investment, need for investment, with the need to demonstrate fiscal responsibility and generate a return on that? And then thirdly, no surprises, a lot of it comes down to the talent agenda, and how do you as an individual executive, as well as for your organization, make sure that the skill sets and the culture that you have is able to deal with the evolving and dynamic situations that we find ourselves in?
Megan - 00:04:49: So as you look at the results, was there anything that surprised you or were they pretty consistent with expectations?
Myles - 00:04:57: Yeah, look, I think, as I said, there's a number of things that are very consistent, and I think the thing with paradoxes is there isn't a simple answer. This is all about balance, and I think this theme of balance is one that we keep coming back to. So how, as a CFO, do you act in a dynamic way that allows you to keep balancing across these dimensions and these paradoxes? And as I think about where CFOs need to be focused, it's about creating a culture that encourages that agility to respond to this dynamic environment. So as I look at some of the specific areas where that balance is required, I think the first one is to go back to this theme of balancing short-term and long-term. There's a lot of conversation at the moment around the need to think with a longer-term horizon, and it's interesting. I mentioned the corporate reporting and institutional investor survey. 78% of the institutional investors that we spoke to in that survey said that they recognized the need to think long-term and were actually willing to create some latitude for companies and forgo short-term profit where companies were able to articulate that long-term vision. Interestingly, when you look at the preparer side, the corporate side, 55% of the finance leaders that we spoke to also recognized that need. So again, not quite as strong, but over half of the finance leaders recognized the need to be thinking long-term. At the end of the same time, 50% of the senior finance leaders we spoke to in that survey said they were under pressure from investors to deliver short-term performance. So there's clearly a disconnect and a gap there. And I think what that comes down to is also 78% of the institutional investors, four out that we spoke to said the reason they put pressure on was because they didn't feel that companies were able to articulate that long-term strategy and vision, and therefore they defaulted to looking at short-term performance. And so one of the things that we then explored in the DNA is what is it that's driving some of that disconnect. And I think what was interesting to me was to see that of the finance leaders we spoke to, 67% talked about tensions and disagreements in that executive team. And on the one hand, you could see that as being really positive because you want different perspectives, you want different points of view. But as a leadership team, you need to come together and make sure there is consensus and a clear articulation of where you're going so you communicate that internally and externally. So CFOs have a very important role to play in that. And it's also important that they speak up. And interestingly, we saw some data saying only a third of CFOs would always feel comfortable speaking up. And I think some of that is down to their evolving into this role in the more strategic space, and they're finding their role. But I think ultimately, CFOs have this great position of strength, talking from a position of understanding the history and the data and really being able to shape and influence that conversation going forward.
Megan - 00:08:08: And what potential implications could the survey's findings have for the future of CFOs and finance executives?
Myles - 00:08:16: So that's a great question, Megan. And I think ultimately, again, CFOs have this responsibility to keep driving transformation. And as you think about what that means in terms of opportunities, we've seen consistently through the surveys and the results that the organizations that are able to drive transformation successfully focus on the human aspect. So some research that we did with Oxford University on humans at the center identified that 75% of the CFOs that we spoke to had experienced a failed transformation or transformation that didn't work out as successfully as they'd hoped for. And so I think there is probably a reluctance in certain areas to focus on transformational to be bold. Interestingly, the data we saw in the results was only 16% of the CFOs that we spoke to would currently identify their finance function as being best in class. So, again, you could say CFOs are conservative. You could say perhaps they understand the breadth of what they're trying to deal with in terms of the opportunities. And so they're sort of setting the bar high in terms of what they're focused on. But at the same time, only 14% of the survey respondents in the DNA said that they were setting a bold agenda to move forward. So I think, yeah, this question about what is it that's actually preventing them from wanting to move forward with ambition and with boldness is a really interesting one to explore. And again, I think some of the history and the challenges with driving successful transformation are causing reticence. I think the concerns about where you place your bets, particularly in technology, with the speed with which technology is evolving are really challenging ones to address. But I think for us, what we see consistently is if you get the human aspects right, you are more likely to drive successful transformation. That's almost two and a half times more successful. And so the importance of being able to set a clear vision for what you're doing and what your organization is trying to achieve, I think is absolutely critical. And for all of CFOs, that may not be a natural thing to do. They focus on, again, tactical, logical analysis, but how they make sure that communicate as a consistent story to their people so that people engage in the difficult journey that they're going on ahead is really important. So, yeah, we would say being able to articulate that vision is key, and then be able to engage your people through the journey. How do you show empathetic leadership? How do you engage with your people? And, again, we've seen data that says a lot of finance leaders would say, yeah, we feel we're listening to our people, and yet when you sort of look at the converse, a lot of the finance people within those organizations don't feel listened to. So there's clearly a lot CFOs can continue to do to better engage with their people and ultimately to drive successful transformation.
Megan - 00:11:12: With all the change that is going on, how can CFOs keep themselves from burning out and their team?
Myles - 00:11:18: Yeah, so I think that's again one of the key things that came through in the survey. To be successful as a CFO, you obviously have to develop and evolve yourself. And how do you create the time to do that? And how do you make sure you have the resources around you to be successful in doing that? So again, some of that will be internal, and some of it will be external. But how do you create that network, that learning network that allows you to evolve and kind of make sure you are ready for the increasing demands and expectations on you personally? But to do that successfully, you clearly also need to build the team around you. Again, the bolder cohort that we identified in the DNA survey was much better than their peers at identifying talent earlier in the career journey. So again, surrounding yourself with dynamic leaders, giving them the room, the space, the opportunity to develop, and to be much more involved will allow you to step up and be more successful. So again, this balance of kind of creating the space to learn yourself and the team around you and creating opportunities for them to develop is key. And again, a little bit comes down to this cultural transformation of how do you create agility in your organization. How do you create that curiosity? So again, people are looking to upskill, to develop themselves, to be ready for whatever comes in the future. And again, we've all seen the pace of disruption, the pace of change, as though it has to be a very dynamic journey.
Megan - 00:12:47: And what does the survey tell us about the appetite for innovation and transformation within the finance function?
Myles - 00:12:54: Yeah, again, I think clearly the majority of people that we surveyed recognize the need and the opportunity for transformation. I think an interesting data point that resonated with me is that 72% of the survey respondents said that one of the key challenges currently with driving innovation transformation was back office mindsets. So again, there's this people dimension of driving transformation is a really important one to get right. I think the other dynamic right now clearly is the economic environment and that changes people's perceptions. Yeah, when we did this survey in the second quarter of 2023, obviously there were plenty of concerns around the macroeconomic environment. 90% of the people that we surveyed were under pressure or were considering short-term cost reduction and we're looking at how they continue to balance that fiscal responsibility. Interestingly, of that 90% that were evaluating cost reduction or cost protection, 50% were actually potentially looking to reduce spending in areas that they identified as being long-term priorities. So areas like technology, sustainability ESG, and talent were all areas they were looking to cut back on even though they are long-term priorities. I think the challenge there is obviously if you create this kind of saw blade effect where you sort of start investing, you cut back, you try and build it back up again, there is obviously sub-optimization there. So organizations that can sustain investment are more likely to perform better in the long term, particularly in those talent areas. And again, we're all aware there's such a competition for talent in the environment right now that again if your people see you cutting back if they lose confidence in your sustained investment in them and their careers, it's more likely that you're going to have problems with retention.
Megan - 00:14:51: Do you have any advice for how companies can better weather the storm without constantly having to resort to cost-cutting?
Myles - 00:15:00: Yeah, I think, again, it comes back to this question of vision. And if you are clear in the vision you have, you're able to articulate it to your investors, to your board, to your organization, and you can clearly define why the actions that you're taking align with that vision. I think the more likely you are to be able to stay the course. So to me, it starts with that clarity of vision. As an executive team, you need to be aligned around it, as I said. And again, collectively, that understanding of where you're going and how you collaborate to achieve those goals is important. I think we all have observed, particularly through the pandemic, the much more dynamic engagement between cross-functional C-suite executives, given the speed with which things were happening. And I think, again, how you maintain that level of engagement with your C-suite peers is going to be a differentiator for successful finance executives. So it starts with a vision, starts with collaboration. I think, again, how you then use that clarity of vision to understand what the outcomes that you're trying to drive towards and what that means in terms of the culture you need, the skills you need to be continuing to develop and evolve, what it means in terms of the technology investments you make. And again, technology is an enabler rather than an end in itself, I think, is a differentiator for high-performing finance organizations and re-understanding what it is you're trying to drive through that technology. So those would be some of the key things I would point to.
Megan - 00:16:39: And what does the survey tell us about the current appetite for risk versus reward?
Myles - 00:16:44: Yeah, as I mentioned, I think the interesting result around CFOs recognizing there is a gap between where they are currently in investing class performance is interesting, but there are also very few of them, 14%, saying they were making bold investment decisions, I think tells you that there is a reluctance. And some of that, as I mentioned, probably comes back to the economic environment that we're in. Again, I think many of the people now in senior finance roles, as we mentioned, have obviously experienced challenging transformations in the past and therefore may be reluctant to make some of those bigger bets. So I think that, again, the risk-based reward is an interesting balance to try and strike. I think that, again, if you look at where the bolder cohort is able to differentiate themselves, there are some key themes that really come through in what that bolder cohort focuses on. So they are certainly more focused on technology investment. Again, I think they understand what the role of technology is in the transformation they're trying to drive. I think, as I mentioned, they also understand the importance of talent and how to identify talent earlier in the life cycle. So again, they're looking for opportunities to advance people and make sure they bring the best talent through. And then finally, they're more focused on culture. So again, the cultural transformation aspect, which is not necessarily an area of strength in this sort of IQ versus EQ area is one that we've definitely seen an evolution in. And I think all CFOs would probably recognize now the importance of getting the people dimensions of that role right is absolutely critical, both in terms of how they engage with their broader stakeholders across the business, how they engage with their function, and how they drive success for themselves. So again, it's skills like communication, storytelling, and other ones that really differentiate successful senior finance leaders.
Megan - 00:18:44: Along those same lines, I'm just curious, are there characteristics that you see consistently in the Boulder CFO cohort?
Myles - 00:18:54: Yeah, as I mentioned, I think there are three key things that they do consistently differently and there is numerical data that shows a clear differentiation here around the technology. The talent and skills and around the culture. So those three things consistently are the ones that the Boulder cohort focuses on. And as a result... We see that the data says they are 1.7 times more likely to drive a best-in-class finance organization as a result.
Megan - 00:19:26: And as you've mentioned, the survey appears to be full of contradictions. Create long-term value, but cut investments. Be bold and innovative, but manage risk. Prepare people for the future, but rank talent low on your list of transformation priorities. So how can CFOs and finance executives leverage the survey's insights to help them succeed in what is seemingly an impossible time for a CFO?
Myles - 00:19:54: Yeah, well, again, I think, as I said, I don't say paradoxes rather than contradictions. So I think it's about balance and how you kind of strike the right balance at the different levels. And, yeah, the other thing I would say, you know, I mentioned the survey clearly indicates that the role continues to evolve and be challenging, and the scope increases. But I would also highlight that, again, resoundingly, CFOs have a very high level of satisfaction in their role. So, again, despite all these challenges, all the pressures, and all of the potential downsides, there is very high satisfaction. That's because I think the role has become, again, so powerful, so influential. And many CFOs really recognize and appreciate the responsibilities they have, the opportunities they have. Interestingly, again, when we asked the question about career destinations and where CFOs were planning to go, it was broadly split equally. So around 47% say they're very satisfied with the CFO role and see themselves staying in a CFO role. And that would be their career destination, either within their own organization or within another organization. And, again, I think that just speaks to the strength of the role, the influence that it has, the responsibilities it has. But also we saw 45% of the CFOs that we surveyed aspire to move into broader general management roles, including CEO and general management, which, again, probably isn't a surprise, given the levels of responsibility, and the influence on strategy that they now have. So they see the ability to step up from the CFO role into that top job. So I think they're very interesting. So again, this is a very appreciated role, both by the individuals, but I think also by the people around them. I think there's also great recognition for the importance that the role has. And frankly, I think greater appreciation for the complexities of it now than there's ever been. But I think as I speak to CFOs, there are three key things that you need to think about consistently getting right. And I think that the survey summarizes this. But if you want to turn it into action, it's really about, again, the vision piece and aligning the executive team around that long-term vision and strategy, making sure there is consistency. You're speaking with a single voice and clearly the CFO's role in shaping that, in providing the analysis that they make sure the right decisions are being taken on a real-time basis is incredibly important. As I mentioned, the cultural aspects of this are so important. We're only going to see disruption continue to increase in pace. And I think, again, creating a culture within the finance organization of agility, of curiosity, is going to allow you to adapt and to evolve to whatever the future holds. And again, you want a team that is able to move with you on that journey. And finally, again, I think we touched on it a little bit. It's really important, as an individual, that you create the space to grow and develop yourself. As the scope of the role increases, you need as an individual to make sure you are creating that learning network that we talked about, that you have the assets and the resources to be successful in those new roles that you're being asked to play. And that, again, you build the team around you. And again, as we've talked about, the importance of retaining talent, particularly in this very tight environment is incredibly important. And I think, again, we all appreciate the importance of technology that we've got younger people coming into finance organizations, into the workforce that really understands technology. And so you have this, again, paradox where you've got senior leaders that are really excited, energized, want to drive transformation, want to use technology. You've got younger people coming in that have the skills, have the energy, the enthusiasm. But there's a risk with that frozen middle, as I've heard it described, where you've got layers of middle management that may not be as comfortable with change, may not be as comfortable with the technology. And how do you bring the best from across your organization to blend that experience, that history, that legacy knowledge with the new areas, with the dynamism to be successful? And again, how you balance that as a CFO is a key indicator for success.
Megan - 00:24:22: You mentioned it in the beginning, but can you tell us a little bit about your EUI Better Finance podcast who should be listening and why?
Myles - 00:24:31: Yeah, sure, and I suspect it's probably a very similar audience to your podcast. It's anybody that's interested in the future of finance functions and where it's heading. We try and get together a wide perspective of thought leaders in the finance space, whether that's CFOs or some of the technology providers. We've got academics coming onto some of the research. So you really, it's anybody that's interested in the finance function and how it's going to evolve. We're just trying to have some great conversations and again, hopefully provide some insights. I think one of the things that I observe with CFOs, many are hungry for information and knowledge. It's, you know, sometimes I've heard it described as a lonely role, right? Because you're at the top of the organization, you're not necessarily understood. And so being able to connect and the value of these podcasts, the values of the surveys is to provide you hopefully with data and insights that better inform some of your decisions, maybe even help you educate internal stakeholders. So again, hopefully, we're providing a service and some interesting and thought-provoking points of view to continue this interesting and exciting journey for finance organizations.
Megan - 00:25:45: And lastly, given the results of this survey and your discussions with CFOs, what are your concerns or maybe even hopes for the future?
Myles - 00:25:55: Yeah, again, I personally am very bullish about the future. I think finance will continue to have a really important and influential role in organizations. To me, the future of finance is human. I think you've got to get the human aspects right. And the power is bringing human creativity and innovation. Leveraging technology and clearly technologies like AI, which we're all facing up to now, I think are hugely interesting. However, I think that the real power of AI will be to enable better questions and better insights to be answered using large volumes of data. But ultimately, I think, in the importance of human creativity, the business acumen is what's really important. I think for most finance organizations, this question about how AI will lift some of the mundane, repetitive tasks is an important one. But that's why, again, it's so important to really understand what the role that you're then going to ask your finance people to play going forward. And to me, the exciting role is being able to work much more closely with the frontline business, be part of that real business partnering conversation, driving pricing conversations, driving better insights, more real-time, I think is hugely exciting. And personally, many of the CFOs I speak to, I think, are excited to be on the journey. So again, go back to this theme about balance. It's how you kind of maintain the balance of the human with the technology. And that's where personally, I'm very excited about the opportunities there. And I think many of our clients are doing some really interesting things in that space that we're just going to see continue to accelerate.
Megan - 00:27:42: Myles, thank you so much for being my guest today.
Myles - 00:27:45: Thank you, Megan, I've really enjoyed it.
Megan - 00:27:46: Yeah, I really enjoyed speaking with you, and thanks for finding the time to be here with us today to share the results of this important survey. And for any listener who wants access to the full report, they can find that by searching CFO agenda at ey.com.
Myles - 00:28:02: Yup, ey.com/cfo or ey.com/betterfinance.
Megan - 00:28:07: Great, thanks for that information. And we'll also include a link to the report in this episode's description. And to all of our listeners, please tune in next week. And until then, take care.
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In this episode, we discuss:
EY’s 2023 Global DNA of the CFO Survey insights
Balancing long-term performance and short-term results
The paradoxes of the modern CFO
The human side of finance
CFOs and economic uncertainties
Innovation and technology in finance
Key Insights from the EY 2023 Global DNA of the CFO Survey
The EY's 2023 Global DNA of the CFO Survey is the latest in a series that began in 2008–2009, which aims to capture the evolving role of CFOs, especially as they navigate significant events like financial crises and pandemics. The company surveyed over 1,000 senior finance leaders from large organizations across various industries, making the data highly representative of current trends.
EY's latest findings highlight three key paradoxes in CFOs' minds:
CFOs face the challenge of balancing long-term investments with the need for immediate results;
The struggle to innovate while maintaining fiscal responsibility is especially pertinent in technology investments;
CFOs are increasingly focused on ensuring their teams' skills and organizational culture adapt to ever-changing business landscapes.
“There are a number of things that are very consistent, and the thing with paradoxes is there isn't a simple answer. This is all about balance.” Corson said. - 02:35 - 04:49
Short-Term VS Long-Term Goals
Today's CFOs face the complex task of maintaining a dynamic balance between immediate needs and long-term goals. CFOs should focus on building a culture that enables quick adaptation to market changes. While 78% of institutional investors favor long-term planning, 50% of senior finance leaders feel pressured to deliver short-term gains. This gap exists mainly because companies often fail to clearly articulate their long-term vision.
About 67% of surveyed leaders reported internal tensions within their executive teams. Diversity of thought is beneficial, but it's crucial to unify around a clear, well-communicated vision. Moreover, CFOs, with their deep understanding of financial data, are uniquely positioned to mediate between short-term pressures and long-term aims. However, only a third are fully comfortable voicing their views in strategic discussions.
“I think about where CFOs need to be focused; it's about creating a culture that encourages that agility to respond to this dynamic environment.” Corson said. - 04:49 - 08:08
Strategy VS Human Engagement
CFOs play a critical role in leading organizational transformation. However, EY's studies reveal a hesitation to embrace bold initiatives. Only 16% consider their finance departments best-in-class, and just 14% claim to set a bold future agenda. This reluctance may derive from past failures in transformation projects and the complexities of rapidly evolving technology.
The research also indicates that focusing on the human element can make transformations significantly more successful. The key lies in setting a clear vision and leading with empathy to engage employees effectively. While many finance leaders believe they're listening to their teams, this feeling is often not mutual. Clearly, there's a need for improved communication and engagement strategies among CFOs to successfully drive transformation.
“CFOs have the responsibility to keep driving transformation. And as you think about what that means in terms of opportunities, the organizations that are able to drive transformation successfully focus on the human aspect.” Corson said. - 08:08 - 11:10
Innovation VS Cost-Cutting - DNA of the CFO Survey Results
The EY survey reveals a strong consensus within the finance function on the need for innovation and transformation. However, 72% of respondents see back-office mindset as a key obstacle, highlighting the importance of culture in driving change.
Economic concerns are also shaping strategies. Conducted during macroeconomic uncertainties in Q2 2023, the survey found 90% of respondents considering immediate cost cuts. Alarmingly, half were considering cuts in long-term priorities like technology and talent management.
This approach risks a "saw blade effect," where inconsistent investment exceeds long-term success, particularly in the competitive talent market. Inconsistent spending could erode employee confidence and negatively impact retention, making it essential to balance short-term cost concerns with long-term strategic investments.
“The majority of people that we surveyed recognize the need and the opportunity for transformation. 72% of the survey respondents said that one of the key challenges currently driving innovation transformation was back office mindsets.” Carson said. - 12:47 - 14:51
Mastering Balance, Agility, and Growth
The EY survey highlights a complex role for today's CFOs, balancing long-term value creation with cost-cutting, innovation with risk management, and talent development with other priorities. Despite these challenges, CFOs are largely satisfied and influential in their roles, with almost half aspiring to broader leadership positions like CEO.
To navigate these complexities, CFOs should focus on three core areas:
Vision and Alignment: Prioritize a unified long-term strategy and use data-driven insights for real-time decision-making;
Organizational Culture: Cultivate agility and curiosity within your finance team to adapt to a rapidly changing environment;
Personal and Team Growth: Invest in your own development and that of your team, particularly as the role evolves and requires new skills.
One key challenge is the 'frozen middle'—mid-level managers resistant to change. CFOs need to mix the seasoned wisdom of senior leaders with the fresh skills of younger team members to successfully navigate this burden.
“The survey clearly indicates that the role continues to evolve and be challenging, and the scope increases. But I would also highlight that CFOs have a very high level of satisfaction in their role. So, again, despite all these challenges, all the pressures, and all of the potential downsides, there is very high satisfaction.” Carson said. - 19:26 - 24:22
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